Item Clause, Showdown, and other stuff

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Zukrad

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Towns Folk
I wanted to talk about this once the new system was implemented with the Sun & Moon release, but now with the tournament right around the corner, I want to bring up some of these topics that have been bothering me about the current Pokémon League format.

Item Clause:
In Battle Spot, were you are restricted to use only 3 Pokémon per battle (4 in Doubles), having an item clause helps a lot in having a variety of different sets, that helps hiding the otherwise really unbalanced system of battle.

This in 6v6, is not only unnecesary, but also detrimental for teambuilding. When you have to battle 6v6 in a system where the most broken stuff is banned (Like Mega Kanga or Mega Mence), and the metagame is not as overcentralizing as in Battle Spot, Item Clause only hinders teambuilding in every type of playstyle. Not being able to run two or more of the same item (Like 2 Life Orbs, 2 Choice Scarfs or 2 Leftovers) hinders any type of playstyle, Hyper Offense, Bulky Offense, Balance, Semi Stall and Stall.

I would say that just taking away this rule from the 6v6 format would be the most helpful and best option

Best of 3
In the current format, the challenger pays 3PC and battles once, and get one battle.

This is not that good for two reasons:
- In case of Hax: As all of you already know, Pokémon can be very haxy, which may lead to unfair wins/loses. Maybe someone deserved to win a Badge, but he got haxed to dead and lost 3 PC in a battle that otherwise, would have won, or, maybe someone won a badge thanks to luck, rather than skill. Best of 3 helps taming down the hax. If one of the players loses by luck the first match, is still has two other matches to return and possibly win.

- Knowing your opponent: A lot of times, I have played with people that are not really good, and I lost. Not because they outplayed me, but because I overestimated them, thinking:
"There is no way an Excadrill stays in against a Landorus-T, specially knowing that Excadrill wins him the game, so I'm switching to Kyurem predicting his Hippowdon to switch in" *Exca clicks Iron Head and crits* (And I know that wasn't the best play ever, but it is better than staying in with your wincon against something that outspeeds it, walls it and kills it)

And no, he didn't make the best prediction ever, he didn't even knew that Gengar had Levitate (which was the thing that won me the game). He actually just played badly.

Knowing if your opponent is a good player, or just someone that clicks the super effective move against whatever is in front of him helps A LOT when playing someone, and makes the outcome of the battle rely more on skill of both players.

Also, in case that both players have a similar level of skill, knowing your opponent helps you by deciding how to act in a game, if more defensively, or more offensively, which can create much more entertaining matches.

The main issue with having best of 3 is the fact that is little bit time consuming, but it can be resolved with my next point

Showdown:
tbh, this rule feels like it goes nowhere

The reason why gym leaders are not allowed to battle in Showdown is because they have to be sure that the opponent is using a Kalos Born Pokémon born in the game (I'm taking this topic in a bit), and the main reason why we are not allowed to use pre Kalos Pokémon, is because they might be hacked.

In short, the reason why we can't use Showdown is to make sure that people are not using hacked Pokémon... which is impossible in Showdown

Using Showdown also solves the dilema of using Legendaries. The main (and only imo) issue with allowing legendaries is the fact that not everyone can have access to legendaries with good IVs, thus, having less teambuilding options than the rest of the players. By using a battle simulator like Showdown, solves this by allowing everyone to have legendaries.

Another Showdown benefit is the accesibility. If you have a computer and access to the internet, you can play in Showdown. That means that if a Gym leader or a Gym challenger has problems with their 3DS, the can just battle in Showdown.

Showdown also helps when one of the players doesn't have ORAS or a game tha introduced new Megas/Pokémon/Items, so there is no excuse for both players to use everything avaliable in the game.

Finally, Showdown helps with speed and match stability. Not only the battles in showdown are much faster to start (without needing to share friends code and all that) and faster to... well... battle, which helps with the Best of 3 thing I commented before, but it also helps with the stability of the battle.
In case of disconection, showdown is far superior than 3DS, since one of the players can stop the timer in case one of the players loses connection temporarily.
In my case, for example, I would have loved to take the place of the gym leader that just left, but I can't because of this problem.
Right now, I'm living in a students house, and we are all sharing the same Wi-Fi, and is often really good, or really terrible ( @Steve is a witness of that lol). If gym leaders and gym challengers could use Showdown to battle, I would be the first in the line to become the next gym leader, but I can't :'v

Really the only issue with using Showdown is the fact that some players might not know how to use the Showdown interface, which can be solved with a little of help. (And... well... the fact that this is 3DSPedia and we are not using 3DS to play with... but that is kind of irrelevant)

Overall, I think the inclusion of Showdown as an alternative (not a replacement) in the gym battles and tournaments can be extremely helpful.

Old gen mons
There are two reasons why someone might ban pre gen 6 mons

- Possibility of being hacked: I already talked about my point of view in hacked Pokémon in the main tournament thread, so I'm not going to type that again (In short, I don't really mind it). But, assuming that a pre gen 6 Pokémon that has 6IVs is hacked is a little odd

To begin with, since DS and Wii games lost wi-fi support, is much harder to hack Pokémon in a pre gen 6 gen, than in gen 6. Not only that, but 6IVs legit Pokémon are much easier to get in gen 4 and 5 games than in gen 6 thanks to RNG abuse.

In short, in games before gen 6, is easier to get a legit Pokémon than a hacked Pokémon, while in gen 6 is the opposite. So a gen 6 Pokémon has much more chances of being hacked than a gen 4 or 5 Pokémon

- Obscure tutor moves/TMs: This is the most understandable reason to ban Pokémon from gen 5 or before, but still kinda flawed imo.

Having less stuff to worry about is always good in a metagame so filled with stuff that is problematic. Not having to worry about Soft Boiled Clefable, Wish Chansey, and Defog Zapdos can be cool, but comes with a cost.

Not having this tutor moves can also be bad for the meta. A lot of teams that rely on hazard control from Lati@s, Zapdos, Salamence, etc, now have to either put in their team something that might not fit in their team, or just no running hazard control at all. The same goes for most of past gen tutors

There is a few other things that I would like to talk about (Like for example, the reason why Shadow Tag Goth was banned, wasnt because of rest, but because of Shadow Tag, which is broken enough on itself, with or without rest), but my back hurts and I need to buy milk...

bye
 
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  1. I personally disagree with the item clause because bulkier teams will have a lot of mons that rely on leftovers, and considering we're using the OU as the basis for pedia rules it would be inhibiting team building by a lot.
  2. No. A Pokemon battle is a pokémon battle BECAUSE of the amount of stupid things that could happen. Your opponent could predict your prediction and counter that, or it could just be blind luck-- either way, it's always been a factor in Pokémon. Getting a lucky flinch and winning a gym badge is something that happens, and that's perfectly fine IMO. It's how the game works. They might not be as skilled as you, and you might beat them 20000000:1 but the fact that they've bested your gym once, with a bit of luck on their side is still deserving of a badge.
  3. I think 3DSPedia's main point is to encourage play from the device itself. The reason hacked pokemon ARE an issue is because of the amount of hard work that goes into breeding a team and using it to battle to begin with. I'm all for building teams on Showdown, but it's essential for this league to breed thosePokémon in game, and pour your effort into it. The defog issue is still a little iffy, as it's the only move that can really clear hazards, and that might be why it's eliminated completely from the base league rules?
  4. Refer to point 3.
  5. The league might be entirely abolished based on Marc's decision as soon as SMoon comes out, so we might not even have the time to apply these changes if we wanted to. Also to my knowledge, each gym leader has their own set of rules to begin with.
Most of this is preference/opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
The league might be entirely abolished based on Marc's decision as soon as SMoon comes out, so we might not even have the time to apply these changes if we wanted to. Also to my knowledge, each gym leader has their own set of rules to begin with.
He posted it up to be considered for the League's replacement and for future Pokemon events :p And technically, it already went "bye bye" since the Battle for Champion tournament started >< (unless people just want to "go again" to see if they were gym badge worthy for fun).

1. I don't think we use item clause for a lot of things at Pedia. Actually, I just checked a lot of gyms and I'm seeing item clause. I think my gym was one of the only gyms that didn't have it ><

I didn't even know their Item Clause limited the usage of Leftovers >< Tbh, I can't remember where I followed the Leftovers exception but when I've battled long ago with it, there was always the option to include or exclusive leftovers from it. I think I asked @ultra which option he'd like to go by when I battled him a time in the shoutbox too >.<

2. Serpy is right about Showdown.

3. Best of 3 sounds better as a tournament rule tbh (I think I've done it before at times in the past).

4. I'll leave someone else to comment on that. Just know that after S/M's release, you'll be able to play with XY and ORAS Pokemon. I still think S/M will be compatible with XY/ORAS but will restrict things similar to XY vs ORAS.
There is a few other things that I would like to talk about (Like for example, the reason why Shadow Tag Goth was banned, wasnt because of rest, but because of Shadow Tag, which is broken enough on itself, with or without rest), but my back hurts and I need to buy milk...
For the tournament rule I was looking up the updates and I only found that the main reason shadow tag was banned was because of the PP stalling Goth line.

I thought people would have still wanted to use Goth (without healing) and Wobbuffet since they aren't really "broken" imo.
 
1. I don't like item clause for single 6v6. Why? I play stall. I can't imagine playing without a bunch of leftovers. Leftovers would be the main issue for me at least. For doubles it's fine.

2. Best of 3 in sigle 6v6 is way too time consuming. Hax or not. It's Pokemon..you just gotta deal with it.

3. Showdown? Never please. Don't ever make the mistake of adding PS. Wifi and PS are two different metas. Especially with the rule of kalos/oras born only.I honestly believe ps n wifi are meant to play differently. Adding ps might include more people to play but takes away wifi priority. Since you can't force people to get a 3ds and that defeats the whole puurpose of 3dspedia.

4. With s/m coming I don't mind including oras/xy stuff. However anything coming from pre 6th gen stuff is a guranteed hack. I think that @Marc has done a great job to keep hackers away from this site. Adding pre 6th gen stuff throws away all of that and makes hackers feel welcomed. Also, as i previously mentioned. Wifi is meant to be played different from showdown. Adding pre 6th gen stuff makes wifi identical to PS which is something i really don't want to see. People need to learn to move on and away from pre 6th gen stuff.

That's just my opinion thou.
 
3. Showdown? Never please. Don't ever make the mistake of adding PS. Wifi and PS are two different metas. Especially with the rule of kalos/oras born only.I honestly believe ps n wifi are meant to play differently. Adding ps might include more people to play but takes away wifi priority. Since you can't force people to get a 3ds and that defeats the whole puurpose of 3dspedia.
PS is not a metagame tho... PS is a simulator... and is meant to be played just like Wi-Fi.
The only different things between Showdown and Wi-Fi is with the infinite battle clause and the Sleep Clause: While in Wi-Fi you don't make a second opponent fall asleep because you agreed to, in Showdown, you don't make a second opponent fall asleep because you can't do it, even if you tried (A rule that was avaliable in Pokémon Stadium and Pokémon Battle Revolution, so Showdown is a little closer to Battle Revolution than 6th gen Wi-Fi)
And you can use Custom rules to not allow the Kalos/ORAS born only

But I get the forcing people to have a 3DS


4. With s/m coming I don't mind including oras/xy stuff. However anything coming from pre 6th gen stuff is a guranteed hack. I think that @Marc has done a great job to keep hackers away from this site. Adding pre 6th gen stuff throws away all of that and makes hackers feel welcomed. Also, as i previously mentioned. Wifi is meant to be played different from showdown. Adding pre 6th gen stuff makes wifi identical to PS which is something i really don't want to see. People need to learn to move on and away from pre 6th gen stuff.

1.- I explained in the main post how past gen mons are less likely to be hacked than 6th gen mons
2.- With Sun/Moon around the corner, there is more reason than ever to allow past gens mons: The bottle caps
You only need to get right the nature, and use bottle caps in Sun & Moon to IV train it.
Thanks to bottle caps, a perfect gen 4 Pokémon is as easy to get as a perfect gen 7 Pokémon
 
PS is not a metagame tho... PS is a simulator... and is meant to be played just like Wi-Fi.
The only different things between Showdown and Wi-Fi is with the infinite battle clause and the Sleep Clause: While in Wi-Fi you don't make a second opponent fall asleep because you agreed to, in Showdown, you don't make a second opponent fall asleep because you can't do it, even if you tried (A rule that was avaliable in Pokémon Stadium and Pokémon Battle Revolution, so Showdown is a little closer to Battle Revolution than 6th gen Wi-Fi)
And you can use Custom rules to not allow the Kalos/ORAS born only

But I get the forcing people to have a 3DS




1.- I explained in the main post how past gen mons are less likely to be hacked than 6th gen mons
2.- With Sun/Moon around the corner, there is more reason than ever to allow past gens mons: The bottle caps
You only need to get right the nature, and use bottle caps in Sun & Moon to IV train it.
Thanks to bottle caps, a perfect gen 4 Pokémon is as easy to get as a perfect gen 7 Pokémon


PS is clearly not a meta. I meant the way people play in PS is different from Wifi. Not sure why I am even clarifying this.

It's different to me regardless of what you want to believe. In PS, everything is set up perfectly. Everything is obtainable. From the 3rd gen event Chansey wish to the newest oras event. How likely am I able to obtain a perfect chansey with wish without having someone to hack me one? If we are allowed to hack pokemon, then yes PS n Wifi will be equal.

"These six Pokémon were distributed as Eggs at the New York Pokémon Center; all of them know the move Wish as well as another special move. They were available for Pokémon FireRed and LeafGreen players from December 16, 2004, to January 2, 2005." (Chansey, Farfetch, Drowzee, Exegute, lickitung, n kangaskhan) Yes, I misspell some pokemon my bad.

You are right you can set up custom rules to make it Kalos/ORAS born only; however, it doesn't fix the problem of forcing people to use PS instead of their 3ds. The site is called 3dspedia for a reason...

Again, back to my previous argument. Just because S/M will make it easier to get perfect pokemon doesn't fix issues such as Chansey with Wish. Still not sure why you say people are less likely to hack. If I really wanted I could hack a Pokemon from previous games myself. I don't need wifi for that. Eliminating wifi from previous games just killed a couple of easier methods to obtain hacked Pokemon. That's without mention all the hacked stuff that got infiltrated in XY/Oras

We can argue all day why or why not PS and Wifi are different, but I am not here to do that nor do I have the time for that. I am just voicing my opinion since you asked for it.
 
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